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Lengthen Alliance tournament?

2

Comments

  • Venom (ASIA1)Venom (ASIA1) ASIA1 Posts: 2,232
    The rewards are meant to be difficult to get. My god you people just expect GGE to give you everything instead of having to work for it.
    Well. Lets do some simple math. If Camelot Beasts were lucky enough to even make only 2,000 points per day from Bloodcrows or Foreigners despite being one of the strongest alliances on our server that would mean by the end of the invasion we would have made only 6,000 points if we could even make that amount in just 3 days. Then comes just one day of Samurai Invasion which would require 10k or possibly more points being required in only just one day. I know that your alliance could do it possibly after noticing your alliance was in the top 10 and being ranked number 4 shortly before the alliance tournament had ended, but what about the weaker alliances that are less fortunate?

    As for working towards it. Yes I could understand the importance of this which is perhaps the reason why Camelot Beasts got all of the rewards because of the fact it is easier to make points during the Samurai and Nomad Invasions which apparently two days of this gave us enough time to complete all of the rewards. But, will alliances be motivated enough to complete all of the rewards including the decoration? Will the decoration alone be enough to satisfy players who reach it at that point?

    Like I said before maybe there could also be a random level 10 gem to be included with the decoration as well for reaching 16k since it would seem as if it is actually a lot easier to get top 25 than to reach the 16k. Now a top alliance could get that decoration with ease, but the weaker alliances who are perhaps less active and spend less money on the game than a top alliance would require a lot more hard work and effort for the entire alliance as a whole which involves everyone as opposed to individual players during the Battle for Berimond.
    Camelot Beasts is NOT one of the strongest alliances on the server. Let's get that out of the way.

    I get that it sucks that weaker alliances wont get all the rewards, but the point is to entice people to keep working/play more/get better.
    I support that, but the top 25 reward bracket is meant for alliances that have surpassed the final point reward, while only 16 alliances on the US even made that. Clearly an issue...
    Venom @ Asia - Member for Drunken Fist
    Venom @ Australia - War Marshal for Shadow Lords!!

    Best player on the test server B)

  • Enkidu (ASIA1)Enkidu (ASIA1) Posts: 186
    edited 21.03.2018


    I get that it sucks that weaker alliances wont get all the rewards, but the point is to entice people to keep working/play more/get better.
    Which it utterly fails at because most of the rewards are meh. Even the final 16k 230PO deco.

    On top of that this new AT will ONLY be for BCs. No Samurai (no idea where people got that idea). 

    The rewards are not worth the effort. 

    @Dark Venom (ASIA1)

    And not a single alliance made it on Asia1.

    And pls don't try to cap DFII OPs again. 
  • Venom (ASIA1)Venom (ASIA1) ASIA1 Posts: 2,232

    @Dark Venom (ASIA1)

    And not a single alliance made it on Asia1.

    And pls don't try to cap DFII OPs again. 
    I got permission from Mavrick. Look at your PM's in game.
    Venom @ Asia - Member for Drunken Fist
    Venom @ Australia - War Marshal for Shadow Lords!!

    Best player on the test server B)

  • OxO (AU1)OxO (AU1) AU1 Posts: 962


    I get that it sucks that weaker alliances wont get all the rewards, but the point is to entice people to keep working/play more/get better.
    Which it utterly fails at because most of the rewards are meh. Even the final 16k 230PO deco.

    On top of that this new AT will ONLY be for BCs. No Samurai (no idea where people got that idea). 

    The rewards are not worth the effort. 

    @Dark Venom (ASIA1)

    And not a single alliance made it on Asia1.

    And pls don't try to cap DFII OPs again. 
    It's free rewards, you lose nothing trying to get them. It's not like the glory tournament where you lost troops, now it's just another reward system. 

    Complaining about the rewards is pretty stupid come to think of it, it's more LTPE rewards. 



  • Defectus (US1)Defectus (US1) US1 Posts: 1,199
    The rewards are meant to be difficult to get. My god you people just expect GGE to give you everything instead of having to work for it.
    Well. Lets do some simple math. If Camelot Beasts were lucky enough to even make only 2,000 points per day from Bloodcrows or Foreigners despite being one of the strongest alliances on our server that would mean by the end of the invasion we would have made only 6,000 points if we could even make that amount in just 3 days. Then comes just one day of Samurai Invasion which would require 10k or possibly more points being required in only just one day. I know that your alliance could do it possibly after noticing your alliance was in the top 10 and being ranked number 4 shortly before the alliance tournament had ended, but what about the weaker alliances that are less fortunate?

    As for working towards it. Yes I could understand the importance of this which is perhaps the reason why Camelot Beasts got all of the rewards because of the fact it is easier to make points during the Samurai and Nomad Invasions which apparently two days of this gave us enough time to complete all of the rewards. But, will alliances be motivated enough to complete all of the rewards including the decoration? Will the decoration alone be enough to satisfy players who reach it at that point?

    Like I said before maybe there could also be a random level 10 gem to be included with the decoration as well for reaching 16k since it would seem as if it is actually a lot easier to get top 25 than to reach the 16k. Now a top alliance could get that decoration with ease, but the weaker alliances who are perhaps less active and spend less money on the game than a top alliance would require a lot more hard work and effort for the entire alliance as a whole which involves everyone as opposed to individual players during the Battle for Berimond.
    Camelot Beasts is NOT one of the strongest alliances on the server. Let's get that out of the way.

    I get that it sucks that weaker alliances wont get all the rewards, but the point is to entice people to keep working/play more/get better.
    I support you on pretty much everything you've said in this thread, except for one:

    Camelot Beasts is undeniably weak compared to quite a few of the better alliances on the server, but in the grand scope of things, it's pretty strong. I guess whether or not it's one of the strongest alliances on the server would really depend on your perspective—Does strongest refer to the best? Top five? Top fifty? And then there's the debate regarding what makes an alliance good—is it PvP? Event participation? Is it the strength of the family or its relationships with other alliances?

    My point being that it's all relative and based off perspective.

    That being said, I agree with the rest of what you said. I don't see why it matters if you're not able to get the rewards; it just means that only a few alliances will be able to achieve them. That's the way it's always been with Top X rewards, so I'm not sure why so many alliances are upset about not being able to earn these crappy extra rewards for participating in an event that they have always participated in anyway.
    TheBlueIcicle    US1

    I don't play this game anymore.
  • David Noble (US1)David Noble (US1) Posts: 2,552
    edited 21.03.2018


    I get that it sucks that weaker alliances wont get all the rewards, but the point is to entice people to keep working/play more/get better.
    On top of that this new AT will ONLY be for BCs. No Samurai (no idea where people got that idea). 


    You are right. There are three days of Bloodcrows and three days of the alliance tournament. I thought that it was going to be four days, but made a mistake.

    I honestly do not know what the point is of having an entire alliance tournament being based on a glory invasion only however when it is actually a lot harder to make points than during the Samurai and Nomad Invasions. Only three alliances made more than 5k points on day one from the last round. Now one could argue that the rewards are free and that they are also crappy besides maybe the top 25, top 10, and/or first place rewards, but this just seems to be an event meant for alliances who spend the most money on the game as well if they really want all of the alliance rewards. Activity alone without having enough ruby buyers in an alliance may not necessarily be enough to get all of the rewards and especially if all three days are going to be based on a glory invasion.

    Now it could still be a fun event even if an alliance does not get all of rewards, but my point being their may be some people among the strongest alliances in the game that are among the "top 25" who may be disappointed if the alliance can not get all of the rewards or at least not get the 5% glory flags. It is a strong alliance I would say at least when it comes to event participation if it is fully capable of getting top 25 in an alliance tournament especially on the US1 server, but even then completing all of the rewards is actually harder than getting top 25 during this event. GGS very well could keep things the way they are now for the alliance tournament instead of improving the rewards, making the rewards easier to get, and/or extending the event, but this would also require lots of working/play more/get better in addition to perhaps people in alliances spending more money on the game if they really want all of the rewards from the alliance.
    David Noble @ usa 1
  • David Noble (US1)David Noble (US1) Posts: 2,552
    edited 21.03.2018
    And lastly, about the top 10. What if not all of the alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the invasion ends if the event were to be exclusively based on a glory invasion? True that the 250 public order decoration is better, but even then it could also be a problem if not all alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the alliance tournament ends on a large server during an event that is exclusively based on Foreigners or Bloodcrows.
    David Noble @ usa 1
  • The problem with that idea [that this event is for those who spend lots of money] is that if you spend a lot on this game, these rewards aren't very impressive at all. 
  • David Noble (US1)David Noble (US1) Posts: 2,552
    edited 21.03.2018
    The problem with that idea [that this event is for those who spend lots of money] is that if you spend a lot on this game, these rewards aren't very impressive at all. 
    Well. I do know something about this event. It is not a free for all, but just another way that GGS wants to make more money from us with this event. But does this mean it would put pressure on non ruby buyers to spend money on the game? Not necessarily and especially if they are not motivated enough to get the rewards which I think may help explain the argument as to why the rewards are crappy. Although, even a ruby buyer could possibly make the same argument that the rewards are crappy and not just the non ruby buyers, but if I had to take a guess this would be mainly for ruby buyers who prefer doing pvp over doing events and participating in the invasions. Which if you were to ask me who also buys rubies, although I do miss the pvp aspect of the alliance tournament I am perfectly fine with doing events and participating in the invasions.
    Post edited by David Noble (US1) on
    David Noble @ usa 1
  • hionmentho (US1)hionmentho (US1) US1 Posts: 291
    The rewards are meant to be difficult to get. My god you people just expect GGE to give you everything instead of having to work for it.
    Well. Lets do some simple math. If Camelot Beasts were lucky enough to even make only 2,000 points per day from Bloodcrows or Foreigners despite being one of the strongest alliances on our server that would mean by the end of the invasion we would have made only 6,000 points if we could even make that amount in just 3 days. Then comes just one day of Samurai Invasion which would require 10k or possibly more points being required in only just one day. I know that your alliance could do it possibly after noticing your alliance was in the top 10 and being ranked number 4 shortly before the alliance tournament had ended, but what about the weaker alliances that are less fortunate?

    As for working towards it. Yes I could understand the importance of this which is perhaps the reason why Camelot Beasts got all of the rewards because of the fact it is easier to make points during the Samurai and Nomad Invasions which apparently two days of this gave us enough time to complete all of the rewards. But, will alliances be motivated enough to complete all of the rewards including the decoration? Will the decoration alone be enough to satisfy players who reach it at that point?

    Like I said before maybe there could also be a random level 10 gem to be included with the decoration as well for reaching 16k since it would seem as if it is actually a lot easier to get top 25 than to reach the 16k. Now a top alliance could get that decoration with ease, but the weaker alliances who are perhaps less active and spend less money on the game than a top alliance would require a lot more hard work and effort for the entire alliance as a whole which involves everyone as opposed to individual players during the Battle for Berimond.
    Camelot Beasts is NOT one of the strongest alliances on the server. Let's get that out of the way.

    I get that it sucks that weaker alliances wont get all the rewards, but the point is to entice people to keep working/play more/get better.
    I support you on pretty much everything you've said in this thread, except for one:

    Camelot Beasts is undeniably weak compared to quite a few of the better alliances on the server, but in the grand scope of things, it's pretty strong. I guess whether or not it's one of the strongest alliances on the server would really depend on your perspective—Does strongest refer to the best? Top five? Top fifty? And then there's the debate regarding what makes an alliance good—is it PvP? Event participation? Is it the strength of the family or its relationships with other alliances?

    My point being that it's all relative and based off perspective.

    That being said, I agree with the rest of what you said. I don't see why it matters if you're not able to get the rewards; it just means that only a few alliances will be able to achieve them. That's the way it's always been with Top X rewards, so I'm not sure why so many alliances are upset about not being able to earn these crappy extra rewards for participating in an event that they have always participated in anyway.
    I'll take the bait.

    Strongest - top 10
    What makes an alliance good? Not being event cucks like 95% of the server, CB included.

    But let's not derail the thread. AT is fine in that its' challenging and requires time/effort. Not even gonna get into the fact it's not PvP anymore.
  • Defectus (US1)Defectus (US1) US1 Posts: 1,199
    And lastly, about the top 10. What if not all of the alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the invasion ends if the event were to be exclusively based on a glory invasion? True that the 250 public order decoration is better, but even then it could also be a problem if not all alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the alliance tournament ends on a large server during an event that is exclusively based on Foreigners or Bloodcrows.
    Still not seeing how this could be a problem in any way? Am I missing something?

    I'll take the bait.

    Strongest - top 10
    What makes an alliance good? Not being event cucks like 95% of the server, CB included.

    But let's not derail the thread. AT is fine in that its' challenging and requires time/effort. Not even gonna get into the fact it's not PvP anymore.
    Fair enough:smile:.
    TheBlueIcicle    US1

    I don't play this game anymore.
  • David Noble (US1)David Noble (US1) Posts: 2,552
    edited 22.03.2018
    And lastly, about the top 10. What if not all of the alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the invasion ends if the event were to be exclusively based on a glory invasion? True that the 250 public order decoration is better, but even then it could also be a problem if not all alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the alliance tournament ends on a large server during an event that is exclusively based on Foreigners or Bloodcrows.
    Still not seeing how this could be a problem in any way? Am I missing something?

    It means that even with an alliance's best efforts and also make it to the top 10 ranking not all of them will reach 16k during an invasion that is exclusively based on glory for making season points in the case "IF" that were to happen by the end of this alliance tournament. Is the 230 po decoration really needed for a top 10 alliance? No, because the 250 po decoration is better;although, that could also mean that alliances below top 10 may not get the 230 po decoration either without any Samurai or Nomad Invasion to participate in as well. This is why it could be a problem; although, as long as at least some of the alliance tournaments in the future will still include Nomad/Samurai Invasions that could help make up for the times when an alliance is unable to get the 230 po decoration during alliance tournaments that take place only during a glory invasion.
    David Noble @ usa 1
  • Defectus (US1)Defectus (US1) US1 Posts: 1,199
    And lastly, about the top 10. What if not all of the alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the invasion ends if the event were to be exclusively based on a glory invasion? True that the 250 public order decoration is better, but even then it could also be a problem if not all alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the alliance tournament ends on a large server during an event that is exclusively based on Foreigners or Bloodcrows.
    Still not seeing how this could be a problem in any way? Am I missing something?

    It means that even with an alliance's best efforts and also make it to the top 10 ranking not all of them will reach 16k during an invasion that is exclusively based on glory for making season points in the case "IF" that were to happen by the end of this alliance tournament. Is the 230 po decoration really needed for a top 10 alliance? No, because the 250 po decoration is better;although, that could also mean that alliances below top 10 may not get the 230 po decoration either without any Samurai or Nomad Invasion to participate in as well. This is why it could be a problem; although, as long as at least some of the alliance tournaments in the future will still include Nomad/Samurai Invasions that could help make up for the times when an alliance is unable to get the 230 po decoration during alliance tournaments that take place only during a glory invasion.
    You keep restating that a Top 10 alliance might still manage to not complete all of the rewards, without really explaining why that's a problem. So what if they miss out on a 230 PO and a few tools? And why is it  relevant that they are Top 10.

    Some events might be harder to finish than others. Personally I'm happy that it actually takes a little while to get through the alliance rewards (in fact that's about the only thing I like about this new tournament).
    TheBlueIcicle    US1

    I don't play this game anymore.
  • Venom (ASIA1)Venom (ASIA1) ASIA1 Posts: 2,232
    And lastly, about the top 10. What if not all of the alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the invasion ends if the event were to be exclusively based on a glory invasion? True that the 250 public order decoration is better, but even then it could also be a problem if not all alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the alliance tournament ends on a large server during an event that is exclusively based on Foreigners or Bloodcrows.
    Still not seeing how this could be a problem in any way? Am I missing something?

    It means that even with an alliance's best efforts and also make it to the top 10 ranking not all of them will reach 16k during an invasion that is exclusively based on glory for making season points in the case "IF" that were to happen by the end of this alliance tournament. Is the 230 po decoration really needed for a top 10 alliance? No, because the 250 po decoration is better;although, that could also mean that alliances below top 10 may not get the 230 po decoration either without any Samurai or Nomad Invasion to participate in as well. This is why it could be a problem; although, as long as at least some of the alliance tournaments in the future will still include Nomad/Samurai Invasions that could help make up for the times when an alliance is unable to get the 230 po decoration during alliance tournaments that take place only during a glory invasion.
    You keep restating that a Top 10 alliance might still manage to not complete all of the rewards, without really explaining why that's a problem. So what if they miss out on a 230 PO and a few tools? And why is it  relevant that they are Top 10.

    Some events might be harder to finish than others. Personally I'm happy that it actually takes a little while to get through the alliance rewards (in fact that's about the only thing I like about this new tournament).
    As I half stated above if a large server like US can't complete the point rewards, why do they deserve stronger reward for top 10? It is kinda ****** (yes it's ironic as I'm from the tiny, tiny Asia server). The rewards aren't actually hard to really get at the start of the season when players are getting 5K+ points in 2 days, but late in the season I think 4 days would be better for the sake of earning the rewards properly not getting them on the cheap, at in the starting 6 days I think a 3 day would be better.

    No doubt the fact they are harder to get is amazing by the way.
    Venom @ Asia - Member for Drunken Fist
    Venom @ Australia - War Marshal for Shadow Lords!!

    Best player on the test server B)

  • David Noble (US1)David Noble (US1) Posts: 2,552
    edited 22.03.2018
    And lastly, about the top 10. What if not all of the alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the invasion ends if the event were to be exclusively based on a glory invasion? True that the 250 public order decoration is better, but even then it could also be a problem if not all alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the alliance tournament ends on a large server during an event that is exclusively based on Foreigners or Bloodcrows.
    Still not seeing how this could be a problem in any way? Am I missing something?

    It means that even with an alliance's best efforts and also make it to the top 10 ranking not all of them will reach 16k during an invasion that is exclusively based on glory for making season points in the case "IF" that were to happen by the end of this alliance tournament. Is the 230 po decoration really needed for a top 10 alliance? No, because the 250 po decoration is better;although, that could also mean that alliances below top 10 may not get the 230 po decoration either without any Samurai or Nomad Invasion to participate in as well. This is why it could be a problem; although, as long as at least some of the alliance tournaments in the future will still include Nomad/Samurai Invasions that could help make up for the times when an alliance is unable to get the 230 po decoration during alliance tournaments that take place only during a glory invasion.
    You keep restating that a Top 10 alliance might still manage to not complete all of the rewards, without really explaining why that's a problem. So what if they miss out on a 230 PO and a few tools? And why is it  relevant that they are Top 10.

    Some events might be harder to finish than others. Personally I'm happy that it actually takes a little while to get through the alliance rewards (in fact that's about the only thing I like about this new tournament).
    Well. It has been almost an entire day and have seen some improvement. Camelot Beasts has almost 3k points compared to last time when we had less than 2k points. The Misc has 3,890 at top 10 and even though that is distant from over 5k that is needed per day in order to get the 16k that is not bad either for this type of invasion. So not bad this time for CB and also the bottom 10 ranking. If alliances can somehow improve their scores I suppose that is the funnest part of it. To do well in the alliance tournament even if that means not getting rewards all the way up to 16k.

    Also, you do have a good point. I could just sit back and continue complaining or just simply enjoy the event. It would be a proper balance to the game I suppose to have only just 3 days of the alliance tournament, but also make it fair by having perhaps 50% of alliance tournaments be based only on Samurais/Nomads instead of mixing them with glory invasions and the other 50% be based on only glory invasions if it is going to be only three days.
    David Noble @ usa 1
  • And lastly, about the top 10. What if not all of the alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the invasion ends if the event were to be exclusively based on a glory invasion? True that the 250 public order decoration is better, but even then it could also be a problem if not all alliances even among the top 10 can reach the 16k before the alliance tournament ends on a large server during an event that is exclusively based on Foreigners or Bloodcrows.
    Still not seeing how this could be a problem in any way? Am I missing something?

    It means that even with an alliance's best efforts and also make it to the top 10 ranking not all of them will reach 16k during an invasion that is exclusively based on glory for making season points in the case "IF" that were to happen by the end of this alliance tournament. Is the 230 po decoration really needed for a top 10 alliance? No, because the 250 po decoration is better;although, that could also mean that alliances below top 10 may not get the 230 po decoration either without any Samurai or Nomad Invasion to participate in as well. This is why it could be a problem; although, as long as at least some of the alliance tournaments in the future will still include Nomad/Samurai Invasions that could help make up for the times when an alliance is unable to get the 230 po decoration during alliance tournaments that take place only during a glory invasion.
    You keep restating that a Top 10 alliance might still manage to not complete all of the rewards, without really explaining why that's a problem. So what if they miss out on a 230 PO and a few tools? And why is it  relevant that they are Top 10.

    Some events might be harder to finish than others. Personally I'm happy that it actually takes a little while to get through the alliance rewards (in fact that's about the only thing I like about this new tournament).
    As I half stated above if a large server like US can't complete the point rewards, why do they deserve stronger reward for top 10? It is kinda ****** (yes it's ironic as I'm from the tiny, tiny Asia server). The rewards aren't actually hard to really get at the start of the season when players are getting 5K+ points in 2 days, but late in the season I think 4 days would be better for the sake of earning the rewards properly not getting them on the cheap, at in the starting 6 days I think a 3 day would be better.

    No doubt the fact they are harder to get is amazing by the way.
    I would be perfectly fine with four days as well regardless of whether the event in future is extended to four days or remains only just three days.
    David Noble @ usa 1
  • OxO (AU1)OxO (AU1) AU1 Posts: 962
    edited 22.03.2018
    The rewards are meant to be difficult to get. My god you people just expect GGE to give you everything instead of having to work for it.
    Well. Lets do some simple math. If Camelot Beasts were lucky enough to even make only 2,000 points per day from Bloodcrows or Foreigners despite being one of the strongest alliances on our server that would mean by the end of the invasion we would have made only 6,000 points if we could even make that amount in just 3 days. Then comes just one day of Samurai Invasion which would require 10k or possibly more points being required in only just one day. I know that your alliance could do it possibly after noticing your alliance was in the top 10 and being ranked number 4 shortly before the alliance tournament had ended, but what about the weaker alliances that are less fortunate?

    As for working towards it. Yes I could understand the importance of this which is perhaps the reason why Camelot Beasts got all of the rewards because of the fact it is easier to make points during the Samurai and Nomad Invasions which apparently two days of this gave us enough time to complete all of the rewards. But, will alliances be motivated enough to complete all of the rewards including the decoration? Will the decoration alone be enough to satisfy players who reach it at that point?

    Like I said before maybe there could also be a random level 10 gem to be included with the decoration as well for reaching 16k since it would seem as if it is actually a lot easier to get top 25 than to reach the 16k. Now a top alliance could get that decoration with ease, but the weaker alliances who are perhaps less active and spend less money on the game than a top alliance would require a lot more hard work and effort for the entire alliance as a whole which involves everyone as opposed to individual players during the Battle for Berimond.
    Camelot Beasts is NOT one of the strongest alliances on the server. Let's get that out of the way.

    I get that it sucks that weaker alliances wont get all the rewards, but the point is to entice people to keep working/play more/get better.
    I support you on pretty much everything you've said in this thread, except for one:

    Camelot Beasts is undeniably weak compared to quite a few of the better alliances on the server, but in the grand scope of things, it's pretty strong. I guess whether or not it's one of the strongest alliances on the server would really depend on your perspective—Does strongest refer to the best? Top five? Top fifty? And then there's the debate regarding what makes an alliance good—is it PvP? Event participation? Is it the strength of the family or its relationships with other alliances?

    My point being that it's all relative and based off perspective.

    That being said, I agree with the rest of what you said. I don't see why it matters if you're not able to get the rewards; it just means that only a few alliances will be able to achieve them. That's the way it's always been with Top X rewards, so I'm not sure why so many alliances are upset about not being able to earn these crappy extra rewards for participating in an event that they have always participated in anyway.
    I'll take the bait.

    Strongest - top 10
    What makes an alliance good? Not being event cucks like 95% of the server, CB included.

    But let's not derail the thread. AT is fine in that its' challenging and requires time/effort. Not even gonna get into the fact it's not PvP anymore.
    ALTPE is more like it :neutral:

    edit: sorry, alliance short term point event

    rofl




  • ken.n (US1)ken.n (US1) US1 Posts: 136
    Are you seriously saying 65 people can not get 250 season points each in 4 days without buying rubys?  Using red flags that is only 10 hits a day.
    ken.n @ usa 1

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