Criticism: Shovels

McFeisty (US1) · 14.07.2015

I do not know what GGS intended when they implemented the shovel system. But I do know the result. Many, many people being kicked from or feeling they needed to leave their co-ops, and many more being harassed by co-op members about 'not having enough' shovels.

It is not fun, does not improve the spirit of helping and sharing within the co-op, it merely provides people with the means and impetus to tear others down.

Shovel system should be repaired or removed, to make the Big Farm game more fun, and more friendly.

Data King (US1) · 14.07.2015

I am not sure about the shovel system being the trouble. But other members harassing other members? Some players may not be able to spend hours on the game therefor their production is lower that those that can spend more time on the game. Just because they can not spend hours on the game does not mean that they should be harassed. Shame on those members who do harass others! That will never build a quality team or co op.

RunsWivScissors (GB1) · 14.07.2015

Sounds more like a problem of the wrong members in the wrong coop to me. Coops should be very clear about what they expect from their members, some are very competetive & that suits some people, whereas other people are less active & more suited to a fun coop. If you have members harassing others for not being active enough, then it has not been made clear enough, to the members, what type of coop it is.

jess_d (US1) · 14.07.2015

Some people take the shovels way too serious while others don't. How can we put too much faith in the shovel system when we can't completely understand it? There's a way to keep the shovel count up without being online 24-7.

If people don't want to be judged by the amount of shovels they have then they should join a co-op that doesn't rely on the shovels too much. If one feels like they're being harassed by other members they should move along and find a more suitable group.

McFeisty (US1) · 14.07.2015

RunsWivScissors wrote: »

Sounds more like a problem of the wrong members in the wrong coop to me. Coops should be very clear about what they expect from their members, some are very competetive & that suits some people, whereas other people are less active & more suited to a fun coop. If you have members harassing others for not being active enough, then it has not been made clear enough, to the members, what type of coop it is.

It is problematic that no one does understand the mechanism of the shovels. If you expect all your co-op members to always have a minimum number of shovels, you will be disappointed, as the shovels are ranking all the members of the co-op against each other. I don't know if the ratios are exactly 1/5 of the group will have each of the shovel levels at any given time, or if the top level is narrower, but I've looked, and at any given time, roughly 1/5 of the co-op has no shovels, roughly the same for 1 shovel, etc. It would be like saying to your members that you expect all of them to finish third place or higher in a mission with 5 or 6 people. There always have to be last places, there are always 0 or 1 shovels.

Are there any co-ops out there who claim to have all their members with 2 or 3 shovels, minimum? I am pretty sure it does not work that way, it seems it is not a "numbers = shovels" mechanism, from what I've seen.

My problem with the shovels is that it does not, and never did, make any improvement in the game. It is just used as another way for people to find fault. Perhaps it does go back to people tending to act that way, but at least before the shovels, they did not have the ammunition that they do with the shovels.

Perhaps, at the very least, GGS could explain the way it works, and that there will always be 'last place' finishers, so to speak.

Yakoska (US1) · 14.07.2015

We do some projects in 30 mins. Unless you are online for those, you will never have a lot of shovels. We mostly ignore them.

-Y

RunsWivScissors (GB1) · 14.07.2015

@ McFeisty.... The point I was making was about the members harrassing other members. Regardless of shovels, thats not a good thing to have going on in a coop & the only reason for it would be that all members are not on the same page regarding how competetive the coop is meant to be. If their are some that do not want that sort of pressure, like Jess says, they should go find a coop thats for fun & more suited to them. Or if the current coop is meant to be a fun one, maybe its the bullies that need to move on. As for the shovels, I wouldn`t base any life changing decisions on them, they are a rough guide to say the least, but imagine how many more people would be getting picked on if we had more detailed info about performance. 8|

Jiesta (NL1) · 14.07.2015

In our coop every new member gets a mail with some rules & tips & advices.

One of the things mentioned is that we do not judge players too hard by the amount of red shovels they have. We consider 2 shovels as having participated in a project... When members keep having only 1 shovel during a long time behind their name, it is an indication to us that they don't contribute much to the coop.
What's more, we all do accept that the Golden Shovels always (without any exception) go to the 2 members who can play 24/7. All other members do have jobs and/or other real life-occupations that keeps them from playing a game for hours and hours in a row. I can understand how this can be tough to the other members, but nothing can be done here. It simply is how the game is organized/developed: the ones who can play 24/7 will always win everything.

We explain this to our members upon entry - and - up until now, no one had only 1 shovel behind his/her name... which is a good thing! ^^
Nobody is ever harrassing anybody else about whatever, we keep things civil and I simply wouldn't allow it.

RunsWivScissors (GB1) · 14.07.2015

Jiesta wrote: »

In our coop every new member gets a mail with some rules & tips & advices.

One of the things mentioned is that we do not judge players too hard by the amount of red shovels they have. We consider 2 shovels as having participated in a project... When members keep having only 1 shovel during a long time behind their name, it is an indication to us that they don't contribute much to the coop.
What's more, we all do accept that the Golden Shovels always (without any exception) go to the 2 members who can play 24/7. All other members do have jobs and/or other real life-occupations that keeps them from playing a game for hours and hours in a row. I can understand how this can be tough to the other members, but nothing can be done here. It simply is how the game is organized/developed: the ones who can play 24/7 will always win everything.

We explain this to our members upon entry - and - up until now, no one had only 1 shovel behind his/her name... which is a good thing! ^^
Nobody is ever harrassing anybody else about whatever, we keep things civil and I simply wouldn't allow it.

Exactly!.... Clear rules, everyone knows where they stand = Happy coop! :thumbsup:

rocnrobn (US1) · 14.07.2015

Shovels seem to be based on production/harvest done per project,
So if you co op does apples, eggs and milk a lot and your members have more apples lets say 10 and you have 4 yes they will have more shovels than you. Same thing if it was eggs and milk. You will have to be playing more to compete or add more apples, etc.

I see it as amount of harvest x time = shovels

I'm guessing, however best I can come up with to explain shovels...

farmerjohn 22 (US1) · 14.07.2015

The shovels representing project activity are meant to only display a members efforts in projects and were never intended to show a members' overall performance for the cooperative. I do like to see my members with a reasonable number of shovels, but it's not my first concern. Due to the different schedules of my members, some projects are completed before they even have a chance to log on! So in no way should a lack of shovels be grounds for removal from a coop.

FarmerJojoBell (US1) · 16.07.2015

McFeisty wrote: »

It is problematic that no one does understand the mechanism of the shovels. If you expect all your co-op members to always have a minimum number of shovels, you will be disappointed, as the shovels are ranking all the members of the co-op against each other. I don't know if the ratios are exactly 1/5 of the group will have each of the shovel levels at any given time, or if the top level is narrower, but I've looked, and at any given time, roughly 1/5 of the co-op has no shovels, roughly the same for 1 shovel, etc. It would be like saying to your members that you expect all of them to finish third place or higher in a mission with 5 or 6 people. There always have to be last places, there are always 0 or 1 shovels.

Are there any co-ops out there who claim to have all their members with 2 or 3 shovels, minimum? I am pretty sure it does not work that way, it seems it is not a "numbers = shovels" mechanism, from what I've seen.

My problem with the shovels is that it does not, and never did, make any improvement in the game. It is just used as another way for people to find fault. Perhaps it does go back to people tending to act that way, but at least before the shovels, they did not have the ammunition that they do with the shovels.

Perhaps, at the very least, GGS could explain the way it works, and that there will always be 'last place' finishers, so to speak.

The only time anyone has zero in my co-op is when they have first joined! More often than not, 90% of the people in my co-ops have 3+ shovels. If they have been on vacation for two weeks and missed a couple projects it can hit 1-2 shovels, There has been a zero before in my www co-op, and they were eventually removed, but that was because they didn't log in at all.

I agree with most people here, shovels alone should not be grounds for removal. I do, however, include it as part of the "are you an active player" assessment. That includes if they donate to the co-op, help with research, run at least a couple missions when the challenge is running, are they rising in levels, etc...

Graycat Ashes S (US1) · 17.07.2015

McFeisty wrote: »

I do not know what GGS intended when they implemented the shovel system. But I do know the result. Many, many people being kicked from or feeling they needed to leave their co-ops, and many more being harassed by co-op members about 'not having enough' shovels.

It is not fun, does not improve the spirit of helping and sharing within the co-op, it merely provides people with the means and impetus to tear others down.

Shovel system should be repaired or removed, to make the Big Farm game more fun, and more friendly.

Sounds good to me, you should know if a member is actually active or farming instead of just being logged in. If a co-op doesn't care about you and only wants you if you have 4 or 5 shovels then why would you want to be in that co-op, really? And so what if members are "harassing" you over not having more than one or two shovels? You can always go find another co-op. Most cooperatives understand that, if yours doesn't, maybe you should find a better one.

bustaa (US1) · 18.07.2015

Graycat Ashes S wrote: »

Sounds good to me, you should know if a member is actually active or farming instead of just being logged in. If a co-op doesn't care about you and only wants you if you have 4 or 5 shovels then why would you want to be in that co-op, really? And so what if members are "harassing" you over not having more than one or two shovels? You can always go find another co-op. Most cooperatives understand that, if yours doesn't, maybe you should find a better one.

Well you know what they say shovels are like opinions and ol greycats got a Biggun ..Keep yer head up there WhistleBritches...

Graycat Ashes S (US1) · 19.07.2015

bustaa3 wrote: »

Well you know what they say shovels are like opinions and ol greycats got a Biggun ..Keep yer head up there WhistleBritches...

loved how you gave me 7 pranks while I was away, fellow co-op member. And during a cooperative championship too.

Criticism: Shovels

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