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Suggestion: long and short term shovels

jaystarr2jaystarr2 Posts: 1,657
While I think the shovel system might be a helpful indicator, I think it is limited by its short-termedness.

Suggestion: in addition to the shovels for contribution in the 5 most recent projects, can we also have a more long-term shovel indicator, like how your performance was for, say, the last 20-50 projects you worked on?

The reason for this is that 5 projects is a very short time, and may not be indicative of your overall contribution to a project.

For example, if our co-op did the chicken/egg project, or popcorn, 5 times in a row, we would be done in a week and have our shovels. But if it turns out that I just had a bad week and couldn't be online, then my shovels would drop to 0-1. But this is not reflective at all of my contribution to the co-op.

If people are worried about beinig kicked on the basis of their performance‏, five projects really isn't that much to go on. And it would result in unfair kickings. So I'd be interested in more information about people's short and long term performances, like maybe how shovel-ful they were over the last 20 or 50 projects as well‏.

I think this would give a much better and reliable indicator of what a person's contribution to a co-op would be, rather than just how they performed in the last week.
Post edited by jaystarr2 on

Comments

  • amaprincess1 (US1)amaprincess1 (US1) Posts: 636
    edited 09.12.2013
    Might be the best shovel suggestion to date. No, definitely is. Last 5 is really indicative of nothing more than how active one has been in the very near past. Overall effort is gauged via long-term results. Overall effort is more relevant, IMO.
  • monica79538monica79538 Posts: 1,932
    edited 09.12.2013
    I think this would be even more of what people are already upset about, especially since it would go back to before there were such records. I think a better explanation of what the shovels actually mean would be of greater help and less for the developers to make more changes.
  • amaprincess1 (US1)amaprincess1 (US1) Posts: 636
    edited 09.12.2013
    I think what is distasteful to most is that it adds a zero-sum element to the game. It is not a zero-sum game but if we're gonna do it, we might as well use it to mine real, useful data.
  • jaystarr2jaystarr2 Posts: 1,657
    edited 09.12.2013
    I think this would be even more of what people are already upset about, especially since it would go back to before there were such records. I think a better explanation of what the shovels actually mean would be of greater help and less for the developers to make more changes.

    That's why I said in my original post that IF people are worried about getting kicked out of their co-op on the basis of their shovels, a system that could demonstrate their long-term contribution to the co-op would be much more telling than just how they did in the past week. This is why I don't think the shovel system as it stands provides sufficient basis to kick anyone out of a co-op, because it is too short term and might unfairly disadvantage people who might just have a busy week in real life and can't get onto the game. But an indicator that tracks contribution over a longer period of time would give more consistent information about someone's behavior in a co-op.

    That said, a much clearer explanation of how the shovel system works would be also appreciated for both long and short term contributions.
  • monica79538monica79538 Posts: 1,932
    edited 09.12.2013
    Long term shovels would benefit mostly people that have been in a co-op for a long period and have done well all along throughout their time invested with them. This would defeat the people that might not have started out as such good members and have improved --over time. People that didn't quite understand the profit cycle or had bad bugs that their harvests were not counting and had to go through support to have it fixed: how are those counted?

    Really against this idea, even through more explanation.
  • jaystarr2jaystarr2 Posts: 1,657
    edited 09.12.2013
    Long term shovels would benefit mostly people that have been in a co-op for a long period and have done well all along throughout their time invested with them. This would defeat the people that might not have started out as such good members and have improved --over time.

    That's why the suggestion is for long AND short term shovels.
  • monica79538monica79538 Posts: 1,932
    edited 09.12.2013
    what about people that have been in the co-op only a short time? The longer the time period/more challenges considered the more automatic and subjective the judgement would be--At least with only the last 5 challenges to be in the average, people are more likely to remember a few of the circumstance behind the numbers--the lady that had surgery, the guy that just found out he had cancer, someone that just started back to work after a long period of unemployment--how to figure in those figures? Not everyone plays the game with the same intensity.

    Please stop quoting me. I am not the only one with a difference of opinion to your ideas.
  • jaystarr2jaystarr2 Posts: 1,657
    edited 09.12.2013
    That is why I have suggested both long and short term be considered. They are not mutually exclusive. Having both would solve the problem that you raise as well as the problem that I identified at the beginning of this topic. I'm not sure how much more I can explain this to you since I've pretty much just repeated myself three times to answer your question.
  • Latten (DE1)Latten (DE1) Posts: 6,246
    edited 09.12.2013
    Hey Jaystarr, I'll pass it on in the next community ideas meeting :)
  • monica79538monica79538 Posts: 1,932
    edited 09.12.2013
    Latten--Pass what on exactly? sigh.
  • jess_d (US1)jess_d (US1) US1 Posts: 3,515
    edited 09.12.2013
    Latten--Pass what on exactly? sigh.

    This
    jaystarr2 wrote: »
    While I think the shovel system might be a helpful indicator, I think it is limited by its short-termedness.

    Suggestion: in addition to the shovels for contribution in the 5 most recent projects, can we also have a more long-term shovel indicator, like how your performance was for, say, the last 20-50 projects you worked on?

    The reason for this is that 5 projects is a very short time, and may not be indicative of your overall contribution to a project.

    For example, if our co-op did the chicken/egg project, or popcorn, 5 times in a row, we would be done in a week and have our shovels. But if it turns out that I just had a bad week and couldn't be online, then my shovels would drop to 0-1. But this is not reflective at all of my contribution to the co-op.

    If people are worried about beinig kicked on the basis of their performance‏, five projects really isn't that much to go on. And it would result in unfair kickings. So I'd be interested in more information about people's short and long term performances, like maybe how shovel-ful they were over the last 20 or 50 projects as well‏.

    I think this would give a much better and reliable indicator of what a person's contribution to a co-op would be, rather than just how they performed in the last week.

    I think that's a great idea Jay!
    what about people that have been in the co-op only a short time? The longer the time period/more challenges considered the more automatic and subjective the judgement would be--At least with only the last 5 challenges to be in the average, people are more likely to remember a few of the circumstance behind the numbers--the lady that had surgery, the guy that just found out he had cancer, someone that just started back to work after a long period of unemployment--how to figure in those figures? Not everyone plays the game with the same intensity.

    Please stop quoting me. I am not the only one with a difference of opinion to your ideas.

    The leader and deputies know when a person joins their co-op & would know that they're not going to have as many shovels as someone who's been there longer. Its not rocket science! They can figure it out. I believe there are enough nice people involved with this game that are very understanding to someone's situation. I don't get your other post about what if people didn't start out as good members. All you have to do is collect for the project that is currently running. The shovels consider everyone's level. I don't know what that has to do with profit. Donating money is another tab.
  • monica79538monica79538 Posts: 1,932
    edited 09.12.2013
    hmm where in my posts on this thread did I mention 'profit'? or donating money? I just think there is a lot more explaining on how the shovels evaluate performance before more even weight is given to them.
  • jess_d (US1)jess_d (US1) US1 Posts: 3,515
    edited 09.12.2013
    Long term shovels would benefit mostly people that have been in a co-op for a long period and have done well all along throughout their time invested with them. This would defeat the people that might not have started out as such good members and have improved --over time. People that didn't quite understand the profit cycle or had bad bugs that their harvests were not counting and had to go through support to have it fixed: how are those counted?

    Really against this idea, even through more explanation.

    You mentioned it in that post right there^^. I think they have explained the shovels as much as they're going to. If they're going to be a guide for someone's participation in the co-op then it would make sense to have long term and short term shovels to go by. Co-ops need to know who is pulling their weight and who's not. Its not fair for some to do all the work while others just hang out and get nice benefits. But anywho, I'm not going to waste my day debating with someone who doesn't want to be in a co-op anyway. I don't know why you care.
  • amaprincess1 (US1)amaprincess1 (US1) Posts: 636
    edited 09.12.2013
    hmm where in my posts on this thread did I mention 'profit'? or donating money? I just think there is a lot more explaining on how the shovels evaluate performance before more even weight is given to them.

    What "weight"? I don't get that. And the evaluation aspect has been explained ad-nauseam. What more do you want? The actual coding?

    I could care less if we have shovels or not but if we're going to have them, they might as well generate useful data. If long term equals the last 50 projects, players with less than 50 under their belts will have a "Not enough data" note next to their name, just like when they sign up and the co-op has not yet completed 5 projects with them on board.
  • jaystarr2jaystarr2 Posts: 1,657
    edited 09.12.2013
    Latten wrote: »
    Hey Jaystarr, I'll pass it on in the next community ideas meeting :)

    Thank you Santa Latten!
    I could care less if we have shovels or not but if we're going to have them, they might as well generate useful data. If long term equals the last 50 projects, players with less than 50 under their belts will have a "Not enough data" note next to their name, just like when they sign up and the co-op has not yet completed 5 projects with them on board.

    Yep, that's exactly it. And in the interim they can use the short-term system to get an idea of how they are doing relative to other people in the co-op. But after you've done 20, 50, 100 projects, using five projects as the basis of your overall performance just doesn't seem very accurate or proportional to what your real contributions are.
  • monica79538monica79538 Posts: 1,932
    edited 09.12.2013
    so out of line some of the statements directed toward me in here. I started my own co-op and certainly have no interest in joining a different one.
    If someone has made a suggestion, i have Can have an opinion-- regardless whether anyone else likes it or not. I would hope that the Devs would take into account a wide range of views so that they can make an update that is adding something needed to the game & that no one is judged unfairly.

    I don't think this needs to be added to the game though at this point--maybe like in a few years, but i don't think it is necessary at this point.

    ***the point i was making about the profit cycle was more about how so many people don't understand the house/decoration relationship--ESPECIALLY people just getting started in the game. They will have a black mark following them around for quite some time if it goes back to 50 challenges.
  • paultje19752paultje19752 Posts: 217
    edited 09.12.2013
    Long term shovels would benefit mostly people that have been in a co-op for a long period and have done well all along throughout their time invested with them. This would defeat the people that might not have started out as such good members and have improved --over time. People that didn't quite understand the profit cycle or had bad bugs that their harvests were not counting and had to go through support to have it fixed: how are those counted?

    Really against this idea, even through more explanation.

    20 projects is not so lonng term we do that in 1 week lol
  • jess_d (US1)jess_d (US1) US1 Posts: 3,515
    edited 09.12.2013
    so out of line some of the statements directed toward me in here. I started my own co-op and certainly have no interest in joining a different one.
    What out of line statements???? Good for you for having your own co-op. I'm pretty sure I didn't ask you to join another co-op.
    ***the point i was making about the profit cycle was more about how so many people don't understand the house/decoration relationship--ESPECIALLY people just getting started in the game. They will have a black mark following them around for quite some time if it goes back to 50 challenges.
    Yea I get that some people don't understand the happiness and running costs. If they are in a good co-op they will find nice members that are willing to give them some advice about the game. There's also plenty of useful info in the forum. Like Ama said, if they haven't completed 50 projects it will say no data yet.
  • edited 10.12.2013
    Often it's about communication. We have had a few members who started up and didn't understand anything at all about the co-op running. Even though we had a person who sent "Induction" msgs to them, they STILL didn't get it. I doubt they even realised that the msgs were there, even though they are fairly obvious to most people. They did not communicate with us at all early on in the piece but finally we managed to get a hold of them when they were online and start talking with them. This was a long time ago now and one of them has moved on (but only due to real life issues), whilst the others are now integral members of the co-op.

    Communication is the key.

    These members would have the blot against their names that Monica is talking about if it was long term shovels but it's all relative: after 50 projects, if the problem lasted for 10 of them, the bad ones would be starting to be somewhat diluted by the good ones. After 100, it wouldn't even be worth a shovel. The Leader is aware of what happened in the beginning. If this is used as just one of many gauges to work out a person's worth to a co-op, then it won't make a spot of difference.

    The trouble is, many normal members and even some deputies are not aware of personal circumstances that have caused problems with performance. As a result, resentment can build up for some of these other members, which is why I repeat that the shovels should only be visible to the Leader and person involved.
  • justme1232justme1232 Posts: 157
    edited 10.12.2013
    Really against this idea, even through more explanation.
    Honestly not sure why you are even worried about this at all!!!! You have stated repeatedly how much you hate co-ops, and elected to start you own so it could be just you and one other person. So how does this even effect you? Just wondering since you seem to be the most upset by it. Also I'm wondering how many times Jaystarr has to say have both long and short term shovel representations, not one or the other. I think having both would help fill in the gaps that having only one of the representations would have. And please stop assuming that ppl won't have common sense about a player being new and their shovels being low. :rolleyes: :huh:
  • monica79538monica79538 Posts: 1,932
    edited 10.12.2013
    I might LOVE to be in an active dimensional expanding co-op if it is set up to be fair and I just don't see how this idea could be made fair to fit ALL levels of co-ops. I think the current shovel system is adequate for right now.

    I CAN have an opinion even if I have not found a co-op I fit well with--they just are not my style. I have been in some VERY big high ranked co-ops--not willing to return to one anytime soon, especially if every move would be so closely scrutinized for such an extended period. I am certain that my activity level would have won me several of the golden shovel award thingees.
    I just want to farm, relax and have fun. Let's return it back to that ok ;)
  • edited 10.12.2013
    Golden shovel award "thingees".... lol, I love technical terms... I'm going to use that one myself now!! Hope you don't mind me pinching it? Ah, that gave me a well needed laugh, Monica. Thanks for that.
  • monica79538monica79538 Posts: 1,932
    edited 10.12.2013
    Hehe :D
    Your welcome :)

    I don't see how people can continue to pull negativity out of my posts in this thread. If changes are needed, the dev's need to consider a broader base of co-op's not just the top few.
  • jaystarr2jaystarr2 Posts: 1,657
    edited 10.12.2013
    I don't see how people can continue to pull negativity out of my posts in this thread. If changes are needed, the dev's need to consider a broader base of co-op's not just the top few.

    Monica,

    Believe it or not, this thread is not about you or your posts. I simply made a suggestion that I think will be beneficial to all co-ops. If you think it will not be useful to you, that's fine. But your objection has already been noted, and I have addressed it at least three separate times. Latten has already said he will bring the suggestion up for discussion, so I kindly ask you to stop beating your dead horse. Thanks.
  • Pameow (AU1)Pameow (AU1) AU1 Posts: 266
    edited 10.12.2013
    jaystarr2 wrote: »
    Monica,

    Believe it or not, this thread is not about you or your posts. I simply made a suggestion that I think will be beneficial to all co-ops. If you think it will not be useful to you, that's fine. But your objection has already been noted, and I have addressed it at least three separate times. Latten has already said he will bring the suggestion up for discussion, so I kindly ask you to stop beating your dead horse. Thanks.

    What is kindly about asking a person to stop beating their dead horse? Its only dead in your opinion. Perhaps your great idea needs some modification, and Monica's ideas have a place in defining that modification.
  • Sandy Pettyjohn2Sandy Pettyjohn2 Posts: 39
    edited 10.12.2013
    jaystarr,
    Your suggestion is an interesting idea. I hope the folks in my co-op don't get too concerned. As a co-op leader, I'm not completely sure that I need to "use" the data, that may not sound clear. I'm trying to say that I don't send a message to the one-shovel folks...it may mean that they have other things in their day than a game...don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying this game! But not everyone is leaving their dishes until the project is done, :) (yep, I'm guilty)

    Sometimes we've had a project started and finished in a few hours that didn't remain open long enough for all the members to log-in...very exciting. I guess I've thought of the shovels as an indicator that at least everyone is giving the project a try, the newer members must be figuring out the co-op, and are able to grow a little corn because their wheat is finally done, meanwhile the rest of the team has nursery seeds and living at their computers. :D

    Will be interesting to see what the GGS team brings in, tweaks, or eliminates. Sometimes the only way to gather data regarding the feasability of an idea is to make it active in the game and see what happens. There are so many suggestions from all the experience of the players, how they choose which ones to even discuss let alone create must be mind-boggling...coffee :D is that their secret? lol

    Have a great day.
  • jaystarr2jaystarr2 Posts: 1,657
    edited 10.12.2013
    Pameow wrote: »
    Perhaps your great idea needs some modification, and Monica's ideas have a place in defining that modification.

    And I've already addressed them in terms of how they would fit in with my suggestion on the previous page, thanks for noticing. :)

    Sandy, I agree that people should not get too concerned about shovels. But given what I've seen about the forums, it looks like some people are. But there are some little things we don't have a good idea of yet, like how the golden shovel is calculated (especially if there are others with the same number of shovels), what factors actually go into shovel calculation (given that hard numbers, effort, time online, level, strategy etc. are not commensurable) and how long it takes for those numbers to come up (since it says 5 projects, but that could range from a few days to several weeks, depending on what projects you do). I would be interested in seeing how this data gathered would provide us with a long-term picture of people's contribution to a co-op, and just how different that would be from the short-term shovels we have now. :)

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